tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6097581429595233439.post7720667951600924551..comments2023-03-24T16:44:31.630+03:00Comments on More Than Words: Is penal substitution immoral?David Andersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13177521181432533108noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6097581429595233439.post-7833901982308272632009-11-25T20:21:50.469+03:002009-11-25T20:21:50.469+03:00Thanks Nick. I'll take this and use it as the ...Thanks Nick. I'll take this and use it as the subject of another post.David Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177521181432533108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6097581429595233439.post-55025917952094379922009-11-25T11:35:41.657+03:002009-11-25T11:35:41.657+03:00Ahh, so you're the "arbitrary despot,&quo...Ahh, so you're the "arbitrary despot," I thought you meant me! haha.<br /><br />Let me highlight some specific points then, and I will be arguing along the lines of Scripture and leave the philosophical issues of morality aside for now: <br /><br />1) You began by saying the phrase "Christ died for our sins" signifies Penal Substitution, but note what 1 John 3:16 says: <br />"Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers." <br /><br />Notice the parallelism here, if "lay down life for" means a PSub framework, the second half wouldn't make sense; it would be calling Christians to be Penal Substitutes for other Christians. Thus, saying "Christ died for our sins" and other such phraseology does not indicate Psub but instead put the burden on oneself to correct a problem, in a similar sense the way a father takes the burden of providing for his family on his shoulders (1 Tim 5:8). <br /><br />2) You mentioned the scapegoat was an example of Penal Substitution, but the fact is the scapegoat was never killed, in fact it was set free (i.e. kept alive)!<br /><br />3) You stated that hell was the primary punishment for sin, but using Penal Substitution means Jesus had to undergo hellfire in your place. The Bible simply nowhere teaches this, nor does it fit Trinitarian orthodoxy. <br /><br />4) Nowhere in the Bible is there a model for transferring punishment either in the Mosaic Law or in other cases of the atonement. Consider the sin offering in Leviticus, note especially 5:11 where an animal could not be provided for the sin offering so a sack of flour was used instead. That is impossible if Psub were the framework, for you cannot kill a bag of flour. Further, the sin offerings were made for sins which did not require the death penalty, thus a 'life for life' model would not make sense. <br />As for turning away God's wrath and making atonement, the Bible gives many solid examples of where a hero turns away God's wrath and makes atonement without recourse to Psub (i.e. the hero getting punished in their place), consider: <br />-Num 25:1-13 (Ps 106:30-31);<br />-Deut9:16-21 (Ex 32:30,Psalm 106:19-23); <br />-Numbers 16:42-49 <br />-Proverbs 16:6 says: “Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for,” and 16:14 says, “A king's wrath is a messenger of death, but a wise man will appease it.”<br /><br />And I know you don't like to be told "go read this link," but if you found any of my arguments interesting, here is a fuller account of what I said above: <br />http://tinyurl.com/cn9vrt <br /><br />If you have any comments, objections, or simply want me to go away, please say so.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6097581429595233439.post-19561277863337133842009-11-25T10:58:36.664+03:002009-11-25T10:58:36.664+03:00Hi Nick,
The arbitrary despot who rules the roost...Hi Nick,<br /><br />The arbitrary despot who rules the roost here is also very grumpy and capricious. He doesn't care if the cut-and-paste URL was to your own words; if you want to debate you have to use them again. He also lives in Africa and doesn't like using bandwidth to visit other peoples' websites without a guarantee in advance that they're great.<br /><br /><a href="http://mothwo.blogspot.com/2008/01/test-post.html" rel="nofollow">The posting rules are here</a>. Pay particular attention to numbers 1, 2, 3 and 4. Any more whinging and the thunderbolt of wrath will consume you whole and even limitless numbers of the finest goats will not save you.<br /><br />Best wishes,<br />DavidDavid Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177521181432533108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6097581429595233439.post-75462911622513739622009-11-25T10:39:30.750+03:002009-11-25T10:39:30.750+03:00I did make the argument myself (I did not cut and ...I did make the argument myself (I did not cut and paste someone else's work). The post was a debate I personally had with a Calvinist on the subject of Penal Substitution, using the Bible as my only source.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6097581429595233439.post-59234741554304989382009-11-25T10:21:15.449+03:002009-11-25T10:21:15.449+03:00Thanks Simon. To Nick - the arbitrary despot who m...Thanks Simon. To Nick - the arbitrary despot who moderates here doesn't allow comments which say "you're wrong, read this to find out why"; you have to make the argument yourself.David Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177521181432533108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6097581429595233439.post-31527965954390205892009-11-24T21:31:27.511+03:002009-11-24T21:31:27.511+03:00Thanks David, very good post.
I'd be happy to...Thanks David, very good post. <br />I'd be happy to join in any ongoing discussion here about this topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com